Emma: I always tell people, "If you're going to start a company, the first question I'm gonna ask you is what problem are you trying to solve?" And they were like, "We do blockchain." Yeah. "That's great, but what problem are you trying to solve?" And if they can't answer those questions, those companies generally folded.

If you really believe in something, you've done your research, or you just have a really good gut feeling and you backed it up by research, go ahead and do it. If people are telling you don't do it, listen to what they're saying, but do your research. If you think it's true, ignore them. Not everyone is going to see what you see, and that's okay.

You don't need to have friends along this journey. It's your journey. If you can have a mentor, it does make your life easier, and you do absorb things a lot quicker when you have someone who has walked that path before and can give you tips on how to avoid some obstacles. But really just make sure that you're doing something that you love because entrepreneurship, it's a grind.

It's a grind. Dear God, it's a grind, and if you don't like what you're doing, uh, you're just gonna be miserable 100% of the time. So at least like what you do, and good luck.

Stephen: This is your host, Stephen Sargeant, the Around The Coin podcast, and we're bringing you something a little special today. This is one of our in-person recordings that we did in September of 2025, where we talked to the one and the only Emma Todd. Emma is the CEO and co-founder of MMH Technology and also the CEO of MMH Data Systems. She is one of the early people in Bitcoin and crypto, especially in the Toronto and Canadian scene. It was her events that she used to host all throughout Toronto that how I got into cryptocurrency and attending her sessions very early back in 2016 and 2017.

She is the foremost leader when it comes to understanding what's happening in the Bitcoin mining scene, but also the transition into data centers and AI and the convergence of Bitcoin and AI and blockchain. We talk entrepreneurship, we talk crypto, we talk everything that you need to know about building a business in the crypto space.

This is one of the fun ones, and I know you will appreciate some of her candid comments. Enjoy the episode.

Emma Todd, why don't you introduce yourself?

Emma: Hi.

Stephen: Who are you? How'd you get here? What's going on?

Emma: My name is Emma Todd. Um, I've been in the crypto space full time since 2016.

It's been quite the journey. I absolutely adore it. I came in from, uh, traditional, uh, banking. Worked at all the large banks in North America. And, um, one day a friend of mine, Amber Scott, who is, uh, just absolutely adore her, she told me about Bitcoin, and I went to a conference and fell in love with it and thought, "I have to do this full time," and here I am.

And then over the years it's transitioned from marketing and events right into Bitcoin mining and AI data centers, which is what I do now.

Stephen: That's crazy. How big was that conference, that first conference you went to? It was like Emma and her three, four friends, couple developers?

Emma: No, it was big. It was, um, oh gosh, Michael Kirkland.

The, um, Michael Kirkland had it along with Tracy's help and, um, and Amber, she's, was a sponsor, and it was big. It was at Mars.

Stephen: Oh, that's awesome.

Emma: And it was absolutely amazing, and they had two tracks, and it was, oh my gosh, um, all the people that... It was really, really big. Um, at the time you only had a few real big names, and they were all speaking there.

And then you had some... We all became friends, um, because I'm just like kinda like, "Hey-" "This is my, my first time." And they'll be like, "Uh, okay." And I'm like, "So I have questions, da, da, da, da, da." And, uh, you'll, you'll appreciate this. Everybody was just so nice at the, um, everybody was just so nice at the conference, and I met them at the speakers dinner.

And I remember saying to Andres Antonopoulos, "I'm gonna come and watch you speak tomorrow to support you, so at least you'll have one friendly face in the crowd." And he was like, "Okay." Yeah. I didn't know who he was. And, and I told people, I'm like, "I'm just here to support my friend Andres." And they're like, "Okay."

And then he came on stage, and everybody stood up and started clapping, and I went, "Oh my God, he's famous, isn't he?" They're like, "Yeah."

Stephen: He's kind of unassuming though. Like, you wouldn't... He has no ego. You wouldn't think he's a speaker. He just talks to you like- Mm-hmm ... you know, a normal person would.

Emma: He does.

And then I, uh, did some work for him, and then I just transitioned. And, um, I d- I think it's very important as an entrepreneur Um, to keep your eye on what is important, uh, what works for you, um, and what people are interested in. So I always constantly iterate, always changing things up, um, keeping it fresh, vibrant, new, and interesting.

I really have to like it. If I don't like it, I'm not doing it.

Stephen: Why events, though? 'Cause I'm assuming... Were you hosting events, um, for the, like, traditional financial services? Mm. Were you the one organizing, like, small meetup? Like, why, like, how did you transition into events? 'Cause I find that to be interesting.

Emma: It was Tracy and Michael. So I was helping them with the event, and I didn't think it was gonna do well 'cause it was my first time. And then Tracy said to me, "Oh, no, we sold out." And I was like, "We sold out?" They're like, "No, it sold out." And I was like, "Oh my gosh." And then when I got to the event, um, uh, I've forgotten his name, uh, he was like, "You helped with this event."

He goes, "Can you help me with my event?" I'm like, "Sure. When is it?" He's like, "Next month." I'm like, "Okay, where is it?" He's like, "Vegas." My first paying job, Vegas.

Stephen: That's awesome.

Emma: I was like, "What is this life?"

Stephen: How do you decide on what you're gonna charge? If you haven't, like, you're helping out at a co- And then all of a sudden someone comes to you.

I know that's always the hardest part is like- I didn't know ... you think of a low number usually 'cause, like, oh my God.

Emma: Yeah.

Stephen: And then they're like, "Yeah." And you're like, "Oh,

Emma: man,

Stephen: should've-" Right.

Emma: I didn't know. It took me a few years. I'm not gonna lie. That's the one thing why, uh, for me it was always interesting.

I didn't have mentors because I was the first person in the space that looked like me and sounded like me. Still am to a certain degree. But you need to have people who can say things to you like, "Here's what I charge," or "Here's what," um... 'Cause they're never are gonna exactly tell you what they charge, but say, "Here's a range," and you can go from there.

Because that's probably the one thing when you start out as an entrepreneur, you always undercharge. Right. 'Cause you're just like, you just wanna be, "I have a client. Okay, they're covering my basics. Okay, we'll figure out the rest," right? And then later on you're like, "This is not sustainable." And then you hear someone who's in New York who's charging X, Y, Z, and you're like, "They're what?

You're charging how much? I'm charging 2,500. You're charging 10? What am I doing wrong?" You know.

Stephen: When I, when I told a podcast company how much I was charging for Chainalysis when we first did the podcast, like, they couldn't help but laugh. They thought I was joking. Oh. Ooh. I'm like, "How much do you guys charge?"

And they're like, "Yeah, around the same amount for 18 episodes, not 52." I'm like, "Oh. Oh, okay. I see where I went-- I see why they said yes so quickly." Coinbase. I see. And I even got a chance to talk to the host. Like, he's like, "Oh, you know, podcast companies pitch us all the time." I'm like... He's like, "You were significantly lower than all the..."

I was like, "I'm doing all the work. I'm doing the-"

Emma: Yeah ...

Stephen: questions." But I think you need that, right? Mm-hmm. It, it, it's... And it's, there's a brand leverage there too. Mm. And you're probably seeing that now in the industry. You could work for Coinbase. You might not be the most talented person, but they're gonna want you on stage 'cause they wanna say that someone at Coinbase is on stage.

There's a lot of- Right ... I think-- What do you think about that, of brand recognition, especially when people are thinking about what job should I get into?

Emma: Mm.

Stephen: Should they be looking at, like, what's the best position? Who has lever- Like, if I'm a compliance analyst at a no-name Bitcoin ATM, or I can be, like...

Or I'm a compliance officer at a no-name Bitcoin ATM, or I could work as a compliance analyst at Tether. Like, there's two different scenarios there. What are your thoughts on-

Emma: Depends on what you, what you want out of it. I've learned that. Um, if you want the money, go where the money is the best. If you want the experience, I would say look at the job description of wherever it is that you want to go or what all the, all the different companies.

Line up all the job descriptions and see which one's gonna give you the best knowledge base Generally, what, as a rule, I would say probably start with a no-name place. Get the experience, because when you're working for a no-name place, you have so many more hats that you have to wear. Get all that experience.

Get all of it, and then from there, like, um, use it as a spring pad to launch into the company that you want, because you're gonna have so much more experience than people who are, who only go in as an analyst or only go in as a this. You're gonna be like, "I was an analyst, I was this, I was chief cook boshel- bottle washer, everything," right?

And they're like, "Oh, that's a lot of experience that we can use." And so that generally puts you above all, all other candidates.

Stephen: And you know, it's funny, as soon as you said that, I was like, yeah, that's why I did that. BitFlex runs so lean- Mm-hmm ... that I got to, you know, speak at Interpol and, and meet these pe- Mm.

You would never get that if you're at Coinbase. You'd have one role.

Emma: Yeah.

Stephen: You wouldn't, you ain't going over there-

Emma: No ...

Stephen: law enforcement or- Stay

Emma: in your lane.

Stephen: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Where at BitFlex, they're like, "Hey, do as much as you do as much as you, you, you can and run around- Mm-hmm ... as much as you can." Um-

Emma: And Interpol's pretty cool

Stephen: that, that was a big... You know, and then you have to get people to take a picture. It was only a working group, but I make it sound like I was, like, leading- Listen ... their next, uh, law enforcement initiative. I know I

Emma: saw you on CNN, man.

Stephen: What was it like the first couple... You're, you know, you're getting more knowledge about the industry, you're seeing the sponsors, you're seeing the companies.

I was... You were my first conference- Mm-hmm ... I went to learning about cryptocurrency.

Emma: You know-

Stephen: Is there a characteristic about the companies that were there then that are still here now versus the ones that were there then that we haven't heard from again?

Emma: That's interesting. Uh, so I remember, so I had a birthday early on this year, and I was doing a celebration in, like, I was doing a celebration in Dubai.

And, um, Sunny Ray was there, and he was the one after Michael Kirkland and Amber. He started to have these meetups, and I just... He's like, "Emma, you didn't know, but we were testing you, but you just kept showing up." I was like, "Oh," I was just like, "I'm learning. I have these new friends. How can you, like, how can I help you?"

And they're like, "Well, we don't know." And I'm like, I would just dive in and help them. And through that, I got to meet all these speakers. And then from there, I got to meet all the sponsors, and I was coordinating and doing things behind the scenes and all that stuff. And then I would always dress, like today, I wear something vibrant, like red, like polka dots, tiger print.

Like, you will see me and my hair, right? And It was different in those days. In those days, we were just trying so hard to get by, and we knew we had something that people didn't understand, but we understood. And we were like, "It's okay if you don't understand. We understand. But once we build it and we show you how it works, you're gonna love it."

And we were just so enthusiastic then. And we built some stuff, and they didn't love it. And we were like, "What do you mean you don't like it? Why are the banks coming down? Why is the SEC coming down on us? We're just trying to help everybody." And you realize some of these industries, they don't wanna be helped, and furthermore, they don't want you to help their, their customers.

They see you as a threat. Um, so some of those companies that were so full of life and just the belief that they could do everything, they folded because just under pressure. And quite frankly, some of these companies, um, I always tell people, "If you're going to start a company, the first question I'm gonna ask you is what problem are you trying to solve?"

And they were like, "We do blockchain."

That's great. But what problem are you trying to solve?" And they can't answer those questions. Those companies generally folded. Um, but some of the other companies that, like, they just stood the test of time or they fold into something else or, um Like ShapeShift.

You know, ShapeShift was like, "We're not going to buckle under pressure. We're going to make everything open source," and there you go, right? Um, but it was a good time. It was really hard, though. I have gray hair that you really can't see, but, um, and you can tell. Like I, uh, people laugh, but y- and I look at the memes and I realize I am some of those memes, or like my friends are, you know.

One year in this- one year in crypto mining, you look like you're 80 years old. And I'm like, "Yeah, that's so true. That is so, so true."

Stephen: Um- It's the sense of camaraderie, though, when you go through. It's like a spin class or a jujitsu class. It is. When you go- when you get your ass beaten- And- ... with a group of people-

Emma: Regularly

Stephen: and you, and you get, and you come out the other side-

Emma: Yeah ...

Stephen: there's a newfound respect. I guess that's why people reference how long they've been in crypto for. Um, but there's a s- there's a respect, uh, if you're still doing something- Mm-hmm ... blockchain related from 2016-

Emma: Yeah ...

Stephen: and that's not the c- that's not what you're leading with in conversations.

Yeah. "I've been in crypto since 2016." Yeah. I think there's like, people respect, like respect. Like you, yeah. Because you could have easily bailed out, tried to cash out- Yeah ... tried to move away from this space.

Emma: Ju- We were, yeah, we were a very tight community. And like when I did that, that post about 2016 versus now, the amount of messages I got, "Oh my God, I remember that.

That's Paytm. I was there." And I l- um, people, everyone was laughing at me in the beginning because I just took pictures and videos everywhere I went, but guess what? I now have 14,000, 14,000 pictures and videos and everyone's like, "Emma's, Emma's like the repository for everything that's happened from 2016 onwards."

I have it. I have it. Um, and we were, we were a team. When things were great, they were great, and when they were bad, they were bad. Um, and so when people are like, "Oh, we were around in 2016," and you're, and then they don't ha- quite have a story to follow up with that, I'm like, "Oh, you really weren't around in 2016.

You, you were just like on your computer, like doing something." Because like I, I'll always remember this story and it's kind of part of the thing. So Sunny, I'm gonna use Sunny Ray as an example 'cause like I really appreciate everything he did now, and I appreciate what Tracy was doing and, um, and other people.

So Sunny had, um, he had an exchange in India. I forgot the name of it. U- uh, uh, Unocoin. And India was r- they didn't know which way they were coming or going when it came to cryptocurrency. One day it was legal and one day it was not, one day it was legal and one day it was not. And I remember I was at home, it was late, and I was looking at something and then the ni- something came down on wire like, "India has outlawed cryptocurrency.

They are now arresting people." And I didn't know where he was, and I literally texted him. I saw it on my phone, 'cause, you know, WhatsApp keeps everything. And I was like, "Sunny, I don't know where you are, but please tell me you're not in India. They're arresting people." And he's like, "Emma, I'm okay. I'm safe here in Canada, but they, they arrested my, my co-founder."

I'm like, "Shit, what do you do?" Sorry, I didn't mean to swear.

Stephen: It's okay.

Emma: But, um, but, uh, they released him after, like, a, a few weeks. I think it was a few weeks. I can't quite remember. And then he came, he came to, um, one of our meetings, and he was talking about that. So, like, things that are happening. When Charlie, Charlie Shrem, I didn't know who...

Okay, I didn't know who Charlie was. Charlie got out of jail. We couldn't get him here, um, so we had a robot, right? And we had the robot, and I went to go pick up the robot. Funny story about that. Went to go pick up the robot, and I met this guy, and he was like, "Oh, I'm gonna go to the meetup to, uh, see Charlie."

I'm like, "Oh, well, I have the robot here. Why don't you, why don't you, like, come with me?" And he was like, "Okay, I'll, I'll, I'll pay for the taxi." I'm like, "No, it's okay. I'm gonna expense it."

Stephen: Mm-hmm.

Emma: He's like... "But I have this." I'm like, "I'm going to expense it. Don't you worry. Just get in the taxi." This guy was a billionaire.

And he was like, "I never had anybody tell me that, 'No, it's okay,' they would pay. Like, not recently, because everybody just assumes that I would pay." I didn't know who he was. I'm like, "I'm just doing you a favor. Get in the taxi." Anyway, so, um, we got there, and everybody was just... It was like people were sitting on the ground, and I s- I have videos of people just wanting to talk to Charlie, even though it was, like, a robot, because he could, um...

Canada wouldn't let him in. Yeah. Because, you know.

Stephen: Criminal record.

Emma: And I'm like, if you were around then, you know how big that was, right? And how we, we made mistakes, but we learnt from them, or they were unfair, and we, we, we, we took our, we, we, we took our licks, right? And it was just interesting to be part of history.

Stephen: That's super interesting. What are your thoughts, like, now? Like, Canada's always clutching onto Ethereum being built here, Vitalik.

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: We don't hear many conversations about what else Canada is associated with cryptocurrency, especially now with the regulations- Mm-hmm ... around stablecoins. Is it like, okay, hot dogs were brought here, you know, from German...

Like, but, like, we don't say, "Oh, the Germans brought us hot dogs." Like, how long are we gonna hold onto the thought of Ethereum being Canadian? Or is this like, hey, this is a national treasure. We should talk about it every single chance we get. Or is it more like, hey, like, we haven't really built anything big since then- Mm-hmm

so we need to keep on, like, bringing this up 'cause we have nothing else to talk about? You probably have the best oversight, holistic view of that.

Emma: We had nothing else to talk about because Canada has no innovation. Innovation keeps lea- leaving. I could... I'm annoyed. I am so annoyed. Um- We have really, really good talent here in Canada.

Anytime I go to a conference anywhere in the world, I'd have no problems going alone because guess what? I know there's gonna be a Canadian somewhere there talking about something that they've done. But our regulations have chased away the innovators. We all talk about Ethereum, right? But guess what?

Ethereum, they built it here, but where'd they incorporate? They incorporated in Switzerland, right? Um, 'cause that was the place to go to then, and then they went to other places. We are quickly losing our talent. We are losing our talent because the Canadian industry overall is just not innovative because the government doesn't help us to be innovative.

They tax us, they regulate us, and they don't make an effort to help us, and I have no problem saying that. I really, really have no problem saying that. Um, I have said that and gotten, like, my hand slapped, and I will continue to say that. Um, I'm part of a conference called The Future of Money, and every year we meet with everybody, including the regulators, and it's all the banks and everybody, like, and we have separate roundtables.

And we t- um, uh, the deputy governor of the Bank of Canada came out and said that we have an innovation problem, and I 100% agree with her. And we're like this now. I don't know. I can't even think about what we're gonna be like in two years, five years. Like, what happens is when people have an idea, when you need to raise money, you don't do it in Canada.

Um, um, like, I've seen these, uh, the numbers where they t- they show that, um, you know, they raised X amount of money in, um, San Francisco, and they literally raised a 12th of that in Canada. It's not worth your while to be here, right? Like, I'm part of a company, it's a robotics company, and they keep saying, "This is your valuation in Canada."

We thought it was a rounding error. We should be worth at least another zero. But because we're in Canada, it's just, you know, like we're, we're, we're running into troubles. I can't say too much about that, but, um, Canada-

Stephen: You think we can change it the same way the US, Trump comes in, digital asset stockpile, Bitcoin strategic reserve, meme coins, Trump coins, World Liberty Found- Like, we have all of these executive orders with AI conversations in the White House with the AI and tech influencers of the world.

Can we change it with the government, a change in government, do you think?

Emma: Okay, please don't ask me to comment on the US. I, I, I have to go there a lot and, uh- While I appreciate a lot of what's happened, I, I'm, uh, you know, I'm-- Let's just say I'm a Bitcoiner and leave it at that. I'm a Bitcoiner. But in... Do, do I think governments can change or changing it would help?

It's a tough call. I kinda want to see what Carney does. I know what Pierre is capable of. He spoke at, oh, one of my conferences actually in 2017. It's all online if y'all wanna see. Like, he, he spoke. He was very eloquent. He was fantastic. Um, uh, but do I think things can change? I think the problem with Canada is that, oh, man, I, I almost think it's an ingrained.

We are very cautious. Like, that's who we are. This is a very cautious, like, country. We don't-- We're not innovative. We're not like Oh, let's do this," where I was like, "We're, we'll be number two or number three, but we're never number one." And I think not being number one isn't good, or number two, because guess what?

We're, people are going somewhere where they can get the money, they can get the help. Um, and I went to Dubai a few years ago, and that was when they were really trying to get cr- people from crypto to come, and I sat beside the minister of innovation, and he was telling people how they could come to Dubai, they can get this, they can get that.

They'll help us. And, um, I've never seen anything like it y- I don't know if you've heard about the golden visa from Dubai. I am, um, at a con- I go to conference every year, and you can apply. They come there, you can apply for the golden visa. You get approved within 24 hours if you're approved. It's a conditional approval, and they tell you, "Just bring your documents within six months."

24 hours. Are you kidding me? Nothing moves that fast in North America.

Stephen: Yeah. But they're incentivized by getting that done, right? Just like credit card- Yeah ... companies go to college campuses because they're incentivized. Ooh. Hey, th- these are college students. They need credit. They see the need, and they want to help fill that gap.

Emma: Credit card companies don't even work that fast. And I know that because I r- I, I worked for a whole bunch of them, um, a few years ago. But, like, it's incredible how they try to help you, and I was like, they're like, "Here's the regulations that you need to do to stay, you know, compliant with us." And I'm like, "Oh, you're helping us.

You're not like, you know, s- or our wrists aren't getting slapped because we want to do this." They're like, "How can we help you?" What? You want to help us? And it was really interesting to see that, and I also go to the US. I go to, um, DC, uh, at least twice a year because, and I'm just gonna be honest, the regulations that happen in the US, it always trickles down to Canada, right?

So, yes, I can bang my head against the wall trying to h- um, get Canadians or get, trying to get the government to do everything, or I can just go to the US and the regulations just tr- trickle down. And they are so, like, they're just so helpful. They are so quick to implement things there. Um, a few... Yeah, it's a few months ago now.

Um, AI, ev- everyone's curious about AI. Everyone's a little bit concerned about AI, what's happening, blah, blah, blah. I was at a roundtable Um, at the Senate, and everybody was there right down to a White House lawyer, and what everyone's concerned, and we're like, "Here's what we think might be a problem," da, da, da, da.

"Here's what we think a course of action would be." And they move quickly, and I wish Canada was like that. And now I'm gonna come off my, my, my horse. Um, thank you for your time. Well, I- Thank you for my TED Talk.

Stephen: It's true. I think everyone feel-- Everyone that's building in this space, the media is like Blockchain North is, you know, trying to promote innovation, innovators in the space.

Mm-hmm. And you know, I think, um, we've seen Kalea work a lot with Alberta, like- Mm-hmm ... government. It seems like they're a little bit more forward-thinking obviously, 'cause they see an energy and they see the profits. Mm-hmm. They see- They do ... what it takes to, to build so- to build something. I actually adore them.

I think that's where they have the advantage. They've actually physically built hard things.

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: So, you know, Toronto's on more like financial services and eco-- Like, when you haven't physically built that stuff, I think-

Emma: So I remember when I met Kalea in 2019, and I was like, "This lady is dynamic. She's really impressive.

Let me go to Calgary and see what they're doing." And no Torontonian says that, like, with a straight face. But I went, and they were killing it there, and she knew the right people to talk to. Um, Alberta had a vision, or she had a vision that she told Alberta what their, what their vision was, and they agreed.

And through her, like, you can just see what she's doing for, um, the blockchain, or rather now she's is more in Bitcoin, what they're doing and how well it's working. Uh, same with Blockchain North. That man had a vision, and it's coming, it's coming to life, right? And I'm very, very proud 'cause y- I think he started...

It was, it was it's only been like, uh, two years

Stephen: or- Two year. He started to say... I remember we were doing interviews side by side- Oh, really? ... at Kalea's event in Alberta.

Emma: Really?

Stephen: And he had a little stand. I don't even think he had a sign.

Emma: Okay.

Stephen: At least I had a backdrop, I think. I- And he was called something, it was dif- something different.

Okay. Canadian Blockchain Network or something. Mm-hmm. And to see the amo- Like, it's just work, right? Mm-hmm. It takes work, and-

Emma: Same thing with you.

Stephen: I agree.

Emma: Like, you're doing so well, and I remember, like, I, well, I don't remember the first time. I remember the second time. Uh, 'cause y- when you tell us, I'm like, "It was a really busy day.

I'm sorry." "I'm sorry I couldn't come

Stephen: talk to you." I'm like trying to like... I'm like, "Oh my God, she's the organizer. I wanna go up and say hi." I'm like, "We're both, you know, A- African. We're Black, man. We, uh..." And I remember like going to shake your hand. I'm

Emma: like, "

Stephen: There are 10,000 people here." You're like I go to shake your hand.

You're like, "Yeah, nice to meet you." "Okay." And you just kept on going. There were 10,000

Emma: people.

Stephen: I was like, "Cool. Cool. It's okay. It's okay." But I respect... I was like, "Oh my God." But

Emma: the next time I was like, "Hey"- Yeah ... 'cause I, it, it was calmer then. Yeah. We had more people. 'Cause, uh, when you came, it was- during one of the highs.

So we- everyone's like, "What's crypto?" Everyone's coming- Yeah ... right? And they're like, "How can we make money?" I'm like- Yeah ... "That's not quite how it is." But the next time, like, you know, you were coming through the highs and lows- Yeah ... and it was really, really good. And then I think you came to-- We had one at, when it was called the Thompson Hotel.

You were there.

Stephen: Yeah, the rooftop.

Emma: Yeah, the rooftop. Yeah. That was a good one. That was a good one. And then I had more time to talk to you then.

Stephen: That was a, that was a fun one. That was a fun one.

Emma: Yeah, that was a good one, yeah.

Stephen: Let's talk about leadership.

Emma: Okay.

Stephen: Like, you're, you-- And we're gonna talk a little bit about b- Bitcoin mining, but you're, I'm gonna say, one of the only females in Bitcoin mining.

Talk about the transition. You go from marketing, you're crushing it, you're doing events. Um- ... I'm sure, and you're travel- you're traveling a lot too, doing events around the world. Mm-hmm. And you're like, "You know, let me go into hardware." And for 20 years, even the VCs wouldn't even touch hardware. Only now touching hardware 'cause of AI.

But they didn't even touch hardware since, like, the Intel chips 20 years ago in the Mac. Why would you go into har- how did you get- Oh my God ... what was the conversation where you're like, "Yeah, I'm gonna get into Bitcoin mining"?

Emma: So I'm gonna preface this by saying I just have an idea and I just do things.

And then when I look back and I'm like, "Dear God, the nerve I had." So, um, I was in crypto. I had been in crypto for two years. It was 2018, and people kept talking about mining, and I'd never heard, I didn't understand what mining was. And so I went, "Screw this," um, "I'm gonna have a conference about it and I'm gonna invite all the top people in mining to come and talk about it."

And it was the first mining conference anywhere in the world. And I had it at Consensus, like, uh, same time as Consensus, and they all showed up, and I didn't know any of them. And they all showed up, and they explained it to me. And Bitmain, the world's largest, uh, mining, uh, uh, equipment, uh, supplier, they gave me my own, uh, miner, my own S9, I think it was.

Um, and I was just hooked. I was as- absolutely hooked, and it was more the people. They were just like, "So," they were just like, "We're doing this," and blah, blah, blah, and, "We have this problem." And it wasn't, there wasn't any noise. In 2018, crypto had hit 20,000, had, was going back down, but it was a lot of noise with, "How can we be rich?"

And I'm like, "It's more than that, right?" And, "How can I get rich?" And if I hear one person say, "How can I get, get rich?" one more time, I'm gonna lose my mind.

Stephen: It was a time when people were taking out mortgages to buy that 20,000. Yes. And it went down to 3,500. Yeah. And everyone said it was a scam. I remember

Emma: that.

And I don't know how to tell... Oh, and, uh, was it Bitfin- uh, what was it? No, what was the-

Stephen: Um ...

Emma: was it... Ah.

Stephen: I know. Ah.

Emma: Oh, what was

Stephen: it? I- Bit Connect. Bit Connect. Bit

Emma: Connect. Bit Connect. And it goes, "My wife said don't do it-" What? "... but I did it." And we're like . What's up? What's up?

Stephen: What's

Emma: up, what's up, what's up, what's up.

Yeah. Bit Connect. Are

Stephen: we gonna cut this?

Emma: Guys, if you- And, and I... You need to go and look, look for this, like-

Stephen: It's coming up again right now ... online. It's so good. I, I seen it recently. It's coming up again. It's hilarious.

Emma: But yeah, so I had this conference, and everybody showed up, and the f- the killer thing is they're all still the people who are in this space today, or they've done some sort of version of it.

And I loved it, and, um, at the time it was like, "Emma, you had this conference. This person was there. Can you connect me with them?" And I'm like, "Okay. Sure." And more people would ask me. And then someone said to me, "Hey, that connection that you gave me, we, we did a deal, so here's your, like, here's your fee." I was like, "You can make money from this?

Oh my God, I had no idea." And then that's what started. So I started, um, int- introducing people, and then, then they were like, "Equipment. Do you know anybody who has this equipment?" And I'm like, "Okay, let me find out." And then suddenly, guess what? I was in equipment business because you would get money from that.

And then for site selection, that was it, and that's when things started to get fun for me. And I, so my company, um, we transitioned. I now have two companies. One is initial consulting, but other one does site selection and equipment sales for Bitcoin mining. And then from there, uh, we were like, "Okay, so we made 21 million Bitcoin.

We're at 20 million right now. We should probably have a, like, a, an exit strategy." And my, uh, CTO was like, "Emma, I really think we need to go into, um, AI data centers." And I was like, "What?" He's like, "AI data centers." I'm like, "Okay." So we started our, our, our, our, our transition plan in 2022, and, um, it, we-- it was a little bit bumpy, but then I'm happy to say that, um, you know, we have some really great clients.

Uh, one of my clients, I won't probably say their name, but if you know me, you probably know who it is. Like, they do, um, data centers for, um, ChatGPT. So that's really good, and then I'm, uh, looking-- I have another client, I can't say who they are, but we're doing stuff in Asia. We'll-- um, I'm gonna be checking out those sites when I g- when I go to Asia, uh, in two weeks.

Stephen: That's awesome. Is that where most of the action is? Like, obviously, like traditionally Bitcoin, China, cheap electricity. Is it still-- And then I hear Texas is probably the biggest Bitcoin mining-

Emma: Yeah ...

Stephen: in North America.

Emma: Yep.

Stephen: Where do you see a lot of this concentration? Where are they trying to find new areas?

We have a friend, uh, Makir, that's trying to do it, uh, like in the ocean, in, in, uh, Africa. There's just like all these random spots where Bitcoin mining is being done. Where do you see the concentration of it?

Emma: Um, oh, it's a good one. Um, I would normally say the US, but given what's happening, it's, it's tough to say because getting equipment in and out is tough.

It's more expensive now due to-

Stephen: Tariffs?

Emma: Yes, the tariffs. Yeah. Um, but you, you can also do mining elsewhere. They've been trying to do it in Africa, but then it-- Africa, South America, Canada. Um, Alberta's really the, like rolling out the welcome mat for people, and we don't have tariffs, so it's really, really great here, Alberta.

Quebec. Just come to Canada and see what we have to offer. It's great

Stephen: For someone new, someone's like listening to this and they're like, "Oh man, I want to get into this," where would they start? Whether it's Bitcoin mining, AI data centers, there's no like certificates on how to be a, a Bitcoin miner or get into this space.

Is it just like shadowing someone like you, walking around, seeing where the deals are being done, seeing the, you know, the white space where they can fill? Like what do you do if you're trying to get into Bitcoin mining?

Emma: Go work for a Bitcoin mining company is probably the easiest thing. Go work for a Bitcoin mining company, look at the skills you have and see like which company out there, um, can benefit from that, and go from there.

Doing it, going at, going at it on your own isn't easy these days because, um, as we've progressed, it's gotten more and more expensive, so it's just best to go work for a Bitcoin mining company.

Stephen: What are the-

Emma: And then get those knowledges and that knowledge then if you want to do it on your own, then, then you can

Stephen: What's the conversations?

You're still hosting conferences when it comes to Bitcoin mining. What's the trending conversation right now? It's usually every four years it's the halving, and that's what people are talking about. What's the conversation now? Is it equip- the cost

Emma: of equipment? I don't have conferences anymore. I, I have one unconference, um, uh, around my birthday for like my birthday week, and I just have like a bunch of people.

We're at a nice resort, and we just talk Bitcoin mining and AI data centers all week. Um, but that's it. Um, the reason that I was having conferences was 'cause I wanted to meet people, and when you meet people, they tell you what's happening and things like that. But now I'm, now I'm, now I'm in those rooms, or my friends are in those rooms.

We already know what's happening. So I just have those people come to my conferences, the ones that are really changing the world and doing all these innovative things, and we just talk about crypto.

Stephen: Leadership. How hard is it to be a leader in this space where, as you said, not very many people, if any, look like you, cam- come from the same background?

Like I'm a, I'm sure a lot of these people are more technical, computer science. Mm-hmm. That's where they're getting their degrees. Mm-hmm. And you're telling them about k- kilowatts and wattage and sites and regulations and scalability. How tough is it to be a leader in the space where you're, you're one of the few that are represented in that space?

Emma: You know, um, I always say if it was easy, everyone would do it. Um, it didn't feel difficult because it was all I was accustomed to. Um, and I'm really, really grateful to have the amazing people in my life. Um, like my friends are fantastic. We are like... W- they're not just my friends in the crypto space, they're family.

They've all met my family. I've met theirs. Um, and because you need people who will talk about you when you're not in the room. And I'm not gonna kid myself, I'm in most rooms oth- other people can't get into, but there's some rooms that I, there are that I don't get into, and it's nice to have your friends in those rooms, and they'll talk about you or try to get you into those rooms.

And if your friends aren't trying to get you into those rooms, then they're really not your friends, just so you know. But, um, you know, it's, it's- It's not easy, but if it was easy, everybody else would do it, and I'm pretty happy to be doing what I'm doing. And it's, sometimes, like, I, I'll sit at a room, I was ch- I was chairing a meeting, and I kid you not, it was 12 men and me and my chief of staff.

We were the only women, and I was leading this meeting. And it's like, "Here's what we're gonna be doing, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, and you do this, and you do that, and we're gonna be following up with you, and da, da, da, da." And the funny part about that was that after two months, some of the contractors came to me and said, "We wanna hire you because you can keep everybody in line, and we need you to help with our other projects."

And I'm like, "I guess I'm hiring more. Okay, we can do that."

Stephen: Tell me about that, working with A players. Like, even, uh, what you saw in the crypto space, a lot of those guys, like, when I look at, like, Tether or- Mm ... you know, Circle, the, it's all A players for the most part, but it's also A player personalities.

Not so much at those companies, but just in general, how tough, how tough is it for you to be managing all A players?

Emma: If they're all A players, they generally have a sense of, like, "We wanna get things done. Let's make..." It's when you, when you're managing B and C, for lack of a better word, like, th- they're interested, but they're, they're kind of a little bit more scatterbrained.

Um, I think the more problem we have with A players is that they're, they're in so many, driven in so many different directions, right? You kind of have to keep them, like-

Stephen: Focused ...

Emma: focused. It's kind of like what your parents say, "The squeaky wheel gets the, gets the grease," or whatever. So you just have to remind them, "We need this, we need this, we need this," and then they kind of get things going.

But it, sometimes I just, like, I'll sit down and I'll ask them, "How did you get this done? Da, da, da," or maybe you need to have, like, additional people on your team to help you get things done. But I'm always looking at people and trying to iterate, try to learn from what I see other people do.

Stephen: I'm curious, you also run a team, and you've been with the, a lot of the people on your team have been with you for a long time- Mm

which is very rare in any space-

Emma: Mm-hmm ...

Stephen: much less a crypto space that goes through its peaks- Mm ... and definitely its valleys. What are your tips for somebody trying to manage a team-

Emma: Mm ...

Stephen: and pay Canadian salaries?

Emma: I know, right? Oh, dear God. Okay. Um, I can't give you all my secrets, but it's, it's tough. Um, I would tell you, um, you have to hire for fit first.

I didn't understand this when I was younger, and I have a better sense of it now. If you ha- if you have an A player, they're an A player, but, um- they're working with a B team, it's, they're not gonna be happy because nobody on that team is going to, um, mesh with them, and they may start resenting them when they're doing everything they need to.

Mm-hmm. So you wanna make sure that you hire for fit. Can you work with them? Can your team work with them? Um, uh, you interviewed Jamie. Was it Jamie? Yeah. Yeah. Three years ago I met her, and she's amazing. Three, four years ago? And I said to her, "Everybody..." And we all, we all went out to dinner in Miami, and her team was amazing, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, your team's fantastic.

What do you do?" And she said, "Emma, we don't hire assholes." I'm like, "What?" "We don't hire assholes. Everybody's really, really nice on our team." I went, "That's amazing." And I took that... No, it was longer than four ye- yeah, about four years ago. I took that knowledge and I went back and I literally, um, applied that to my clients as well.

So I don't work with assholes. If they're, if they're a jerk, I'm not gonna work with them, right? And it e- 'cause it leads to better peace of mind.

Stephen: Yeah.

Emma: And f- and actually, my c- my, uh, my team was happier. And when they were happier, I was getting better output, and better output leads to more money, and so it really all just works out.

So, um, make sure you hire for fit and you don't work with, try not to work with assholes. Sometimes you can't help yourself, but sometimes you do. And, um, just make sure you're trying to hire the best and you have clear results. You tell them what you want and, um, so they have a job description. "Here's what I need from you.

It's gonna change, but here's what I need from you. Here's what, here's what it is, and we're gonna review." Always review and be able to measure results.

Stephen: Take me back. Y- Mm. Whether you're doing marketing or events- Mm ... 2018 hits, ain't nobody trying to be paying for marketing or events. So- No ... tell me, what do you do?

Do you s- sit down with your team and say, "Hey, we believe in this. We're, we've been here long enough to know that it's gonna go through these cycles"? Oh,

Emma: okay.

Stephen: And then what advice would you give for others that are trying to get into this industry? 'Cause they're getting it now. Trump's in power, but, like, for us that dealt with Operation Choke Point two years ago, we're like, "Yo, we're never gonna see the light at the end of the tunnel.

This is pretty much a wrap unless something happens."

Emma: I'll tell you the first thing about entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship is the beli- is the belief that what you're doing is right, and it's right above all else. And so I find that people who succeed believe that. But that also has to be coupled with I know when to pivot.

I had this idea, it's great, but it's not quite fine-tuned the way it needs to be. Let me pivot to make it better, or this is not working anymore. No one's doing ICOs. Ooh, it's somewhat illegal. Let's pivot into something else. So you need to have an ability of knowing when to pivot. You also need to believe that or know there's a market, a, a market out there for your idea.

If there's no market out there for underwater basket weaving, perhaps don't do that, right? And so when you have that, then honestly just tuck in tight and just hope for the best and just kinda keep like Keep going. So I always tell people, if your ship doesn't come in, swim out to, swim out to it. That's basically entrepreneurship.

Like, you have the seas, they're coming at you, but you're like, "I believe in my idea. I can see the ship." You just keep going, right? That is basically entrepreneurship. Um, in 2018... So one of the things I do for my company, I'm just gonna be honest, and I don't typically tell people this, is I do different things.

Why? Because if one thing was working and something else isn't working, you can use that one to sort of balance, counterbalance the other. And when I was doing it, people thought I was crazy. They're like, "No, no, put all of your eggs in one basket." I'm like, "I'm not doing that." So they're like, "Either choose marketing or choose events.

You shouldn't be doing both." And I'm like, "I'm not doing that." And then what happened in 2018, not one person wanted to do, um, events because the market had dried up. Everybody was like, "Crypto's dead. We're not doing that." So I was able to sort of focus on the marketing. Now, I had to dig deep, and it was a lot harder, but pe- there were people out there that still had the money and still wanted to do marketing.

So it's always important. I, I literally believe in having at least two, two streams of income minimum. So even with my company today, yes, um, I do Bitcoin mining, but I really also do ad- advertisements. That's two streams of income. And I also do, um, my consultancy now. My love is my data systems. That makes me completely happy, but I still have the consulting if, if needed be, and you'd be, you'd be surprised.

Sometimes people just want your help in other things. And so I always have a different stream of income. So if something happens, yeah, there would be less money coming in, but at least I can pay my team and their mortgages and things like that, right? And I think that's always important for people. If you're like, "No, I can't do that, and I just wanna put all my eggs in one basket and I will just make it work," that's fine too.

It's like n- not everybody is the same and not everything's gonna work for one person, like, like for everybody. It's not like a, you know, one size fits all. It's what works for you. This is what I find works for me and what makes me able to sleep at night.

Stephen: I love it. Was there a time where you were just like something happens and you're like, "Nah, this is, this ain't it.

This... You know what? It's been fun. It's been good, but this is not it." Like a big deal fell through or, you know, a site, eh, you know, is, didn't work out the way you thought it was, and it was just like... Was there any time where you just go- got out of bed and you're like, "You know, I know I'll wake up and feel better, but right now I'm ready to call it quits"?

Emma: Oh God, I have so many of those. I have so many. I have so many. I can't call their names 'cause they're s- they're still around, but there was one company that we worked with, and my friends know this company, and it was, it was here, and it was good until it wasn't. And that's all I can say. And when it wasn't, it was just, it literally all of us had been working for this company.

We were all advisors or were helping this and helping that and doing this, and then when it crashed, we were like, "Lesson learned. Lesson learned." I still have about 2 million of those, uh, those, uh, tokens. 2 million. I want to gift them to people, but I'm not going to. So that was one. Uh, the other one was... Oh, dear God.

Okay, I started working, when I, when I fell in love with, um, Bitcoin mining, I started working at MGT Capital. You're like, "Who's, what's MGT Capital?" It was really, really big back in the day. It was the first publicly traded mining company, and you're gonna, I, I'll tell you this, the, the chair of the company was John McAfee.

Do you know who John McAfee is? Yeah. Picture that so you understand what I went through. And, and then, and then you're like, I, uh, and then they hired me Um, for something else. Um, and then the very next day they got served papers by the SEC, and I went, "I don't, I don't, I don't think I should be doing this.

I don't think I should be here." Uh, sometimes God sends you signs, and sometimes he hits you up the head with a serving, uh, of papers from the SEC, and you just gotta be like, "That's a sign, God. I understand."

Stephen: How do you evaluate companies now? Part- Not just companies, partners, you know, affiliates, people that you're gonna be working with.

Like, what's the criteria? Is there, like, a... Just the same way you said Sunny Ray was kinda testing you to see- Mm-hmm ... like, everything's a test, right?

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Are you going off a vibe? Are you talking to a lot of people to see their experiences with the person or the company? Like, what's kind of, like, your measure?

How do you measure these companies and people that you're dealing with now?

Emma: Now we're a little bit more sophisticated. Um, now, when I am going to be working with a big company, my law firm runs a check on them first of all to make sure they're not a scam, um, that they don't have anything... And you have to do this, because you just...

Right? And then you also, um, there's also a tool that a lot of compliance companies use to evaluate whether companies are scams or not. Um, if I don't go through my law firm, I'll go through my compliance company, and they d- they use that too. Um, I also talk to people, word of mouth. "Have you dealt with this company?

Um, what's your, what's your, what's your take on them?" I have a pretty big enough network that I can pretty much find out about anything if I need to, and so that kinda gives you a good sense of what's happening. If something isn't, isn't r- right, um, depending on what it is, I might give them a chance to explain.

Or I'll be like, "Thank you. I appreciate the information," and then just drop that.

Stephen: Has there been any opportunities that have come your way and you're like, "Oh, this sounds too good to be true-"

Emma: Yes ...

Stephen: but there was a part of you that's like, "Oh, this could change my business as well"?

Emma: Yes. Um, my very first mining equipment client, it was insane.

It was a bit of a jaw-dropper. It was, still to date, one of my biggest orders ever. It was... And anything that could go wrong did go wrong, and I didn't know at the time, but this, this company was bad news. They were just really, really, really bad news. And I made an insane amount of money, and then pretty much had to, like, give a lot of it away just to fix all the problems and everything like that.

And so what I learned from that... And, oh, and then- And then one of my team members, she's like, "I've got this company for us to meet," 'cause they go and they meet people and they, they bring them back to me. And, uh, and like, I'm like, "Okay," and I'm like looking it up. I'm like, oh my God, I think I know this company.

They, they sort of changed their name, but somewhat but not. And I was like, oh. And I don't wanna tell her, "Oh, hell no." But I'm like, "Okay, let's have the meeting." I was like, no. No. It's not worth it. There is no amount of money and that sing a lot that will make me work for this company. 'Cause listen, when you're an immigrant, you want the money, right?

But when you're literally like, there's no amount of money that will make me work, work with this company, you know it's bad.

Stephen: When you entered the Bitcoin mining space, Bitcoin miners already had kind of a stigma, right? Mm-hmm. Like especially the manufacturers. They'd be mining Bitcoin before they sent... So you place your order.

Emma: Mm.

Stephen: They would use that same machine for three months, mine as much Bitcoin as they could, then they send it to you. There was a huge shortage. This might've been before you jumped into Bitcoin mining, but the early, early days- No, I,

Emma: I, I, I, I've been pretty early.

Stephen: Yeah.

Emma: No, um, I was from the... In the early, early days, they weren't really mining as much.

They were more s- okay, it, it's two different types. You have the, um, the equipment people. They were just like, which is where I was at the time. They were just literally just, um, they were creating it and then they were just shipping it out. Um, but then you had, you had people who were, you know, like, "I wanna get some Bitcoin."

They were literally doing exactly what you were saying, and you're like, "Oh, shoot. Yeah, that wasn't good." And then they, you had some other issues too. People don't realize. They're like, "I'm not getting my crypto." Yes, because at the time when people went in and they put up sites, they didn't realize that there was gonna be a war, so the equipment's in Russia and it's been banned.

So no, you're never gonna see your crypto again. Like little things like that. We've learned sometimes it's just best to mine where, you know, it's, um Part of, like, Western Cheaper is

Stephen: not always better, you mean? Yeah. Yeah.

Emma: Kazakhstan's not always your friend.

Stephen: I thought Kazakhstan wasn't too bad, but like it was...

What do you think the future of Bitcoin mining, AI data centers, is there any technology where they can converge and do similar things using energy?

Emma: Oh, you sh- Um, uh, people keep approaching me about that. Right now I'm gonna say the answer is no, but someone actually reached out to me to say that they have a way to do it.

Um, and I'd like to find out what it is because they're kinda like... Okay, so I, I, I equate Bitcoin mining and AI data centers to they're cousins. Same family, but they're not brother and sister. So for Bitcoin mining, you can mine anywhere. Tuktoyaktuk, have at it, right? It's nice, it's cold. As long as you've got, like, a good energy, you're fine.

Um, AI data centers, they're like me. I like being a big city. I like a big city. You're not gonna find me in Tuktoyaktuk, but we have the same mother, right? Yeah. So it's data centers, but, um, for AI data centers you need to be, um, r- where you have really good fiber cables, really good fiber lines. Um, some companies will say they need to be near an NFL city because that's where...

NFL cities generally have, like, really good fiber, so you don't have any latency. You know, when you're like watching TV and suddenly it goes tuh, tuh, tuh? Yeah. For streaming. You would want to... You can't have that with AI data centers, and you're most likely not to have that when you are in NFL cities, or I call them NHL cities.

Oh. So you can't do it in Tuktoyaktuk.

Stephen: That's crazy.

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Stephen: Where do you see Canada in terms of next five years when it comes to blockchain innovation? Do we o- do we outsource everything, i- including our talent? Will talent come back? We've seen in the US talent's coming back there, for the most part, despite some immigration issues.

But companies are coming to the US. Uh, one thing that we know companies want to set up, they're stablecoin issuers. Mm-hmm. They're coming to the US. They- it's a big market. W- But, like, Canada's not benefiting much from that, so where do you see Canada? Like, okay, stablecoins are a huge issue because they're deemed as securities, which kind of like-

Emma: Mm

Stephen: hampers what the best use case is for stablecoins, which would be remittances or-

Emma: Mm-hmm ...

Stephen: cross-border values. Mm-hmm. What needs to happen in Canada for us to get back on track?

Emma: Innovation has to get better. Um, Alberta is killing it right now. They're really trying to get our business. I go there- Once or twice a year, and they just kill it.

Um, I went there last year for the first time during Stampede. It was amazing. So Calia had this, uh, amazing thing. And then this year, um, I had a couple clients, and so my lawyer is like, "I'm going to take you to all the meetings," 'cause it turns out at the Stampede, uh, 95% of the business for, um, Alberta or at, or for Calgary gets done during the Stampede for the entire year.

Uh, it starts there, ends there, or something like that. And he worked me hard for two days. I was... I did, like, five meetings a day in person. I was going here, here, here. He was driving me around. It was crazy. And, like, we did really, really good things. Alberta wants your business, and I met the premier, like she was at four of the events that I was at.

Like, they, they work hard. They want your business. Like, a few of the ministers are like, "Yeah, Emma, we know you." Like, "We've, we've seen you around," da, da, da. "We know that." And they work really, really hard, and I'd love to see that in all the other provinces, and we're not seeing that. Um, so I would say that Alberta as a whole is working really hard to get your business, like, and people from the US.

Uh, apparently Alberta has the largest number of US, um, companies in Canada. They've got the Alberta America b- trade, uh, uh, Board of Trade. I went to an event there, and they, they gave me that, that statistic. And the premier showed up to, like... Danielle Smith does not sleep on stuff. Um, and I'd love to see the rest of Canada.

I don't know if we're getting it. You know, it's a new adminis- administration. It's a new... Like, we'll see what Carney does. Um, I don't have high hopes, though. I really don't

Stephen: Last-

Emma: I'm not gonna lie.

Stephen: Last piece of advice for anyone that's starting, maybe a young person entrepreneur starting up, wants to get either in this space or any space.

What's some, give us some tried and true entrepreneurial advice from your last 10 years just in career.

Emma: Oh, man. If you really believe in something, you've done your research, or you just have a really good gut feeling and you backed it up by research, go ahead and do it. If people are telling you don't do it, um, listen to what they're saying, but do your research.

If you think it's true, ignore them. Um, not everyone is going to see what you see, and that's okay. Um, you don't need to have friends along this journey. It's your journey. Um, if you can have a mentor, it does make your life easier, and you do, um, absorb things a lot quicker when you have someone who has walked that path before and can give you tips on how to avoid some obstacles.

But really just make sure that, um, you're doing something that you love because entrepreneurship, it's a grind. It's a grind. Dear God, it's a grind, and if you don't like what you're doing, you're just gonna be miserable 100% of the time. So at least like what you do, and good luck.

Stephen: You've been to Necker Island, you've been, you know, around sheikhs in UAE.

Um, you've been all around the world. You're going to Singapore. What are some common characteristics of people that are just, like, maybe a l- better than the rest? Their teams are better. They're like... And you've been around some of the best teams. Is there someone where you're like, "Oh yeah, I can understand, um, why-"

Emma: They're-

Stephen: Richard Branson is..." Like, I can, I can see it in just his team, like the, the center of excellence that they demand.

Emma: They all just want to find... Okay, at that level, they're mostly investors at this point, right? Just looking for things to invest in. Uh, their, the number one concern is what's the problem and how can you solve it?

But there has to be a definite problem. Um, so for example, he kind of called me out on it, but I have a solutions for it now, which I'm happy to tell him. Uh, Richard Branson, when he, he's like, "Oh, data centers," he is like, "Oh, that's really not good for the environment." I couldn't necessarily dis- disagree with him, right?

'Cause it isn't that good for the environment. But now I've got a s- so now I have solutions that I'm, that I'm working on that are better for the environment. So I'm looking forward to going back, um, next year and telling him, "Yeah, guess what? I heard what you said, and bam, here you go." Or I might re- reach out to him before the end of the year just to let him know, um, him and, uh, Bill Tai.

But we have solutions that are really, really good that, you know, we're, that are using really good forms of energy. But the problem people want, or the problem that they, at that level is, um, they want to be able to say they're investing in something that's kind of interesting or whatever. And if you have a good problem and a good solution, they want to hear about it

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